[00:00:00] Kiran: Mics, camera, action.
[00:00:02] Vijay: This
[00:00:02] Kiran: is a brand new show, Takaro Time Machine, where we are actually gonna hop back to different moments in history with each episode. And we're really gonna, understand the people, the drama, what actually happened, and also try and relate it back to where we are today. History can be a great teacher.
[00:00:22] Kiran: And my co-host, Vijay don't you agree?
[00:00:26] Vijay: I think it's, I think history is fascinating, and I think history is one of those subjects that people don't really pay too much attention to. Some people find it boring. People think it's just a bunch of facts and a waste of time. But I think it's in the name itself. The word story is in the word itself.
[00:00:46] Vijay: I don't think there's any other subject that has that in its very name itself. And so I, I find it fascinating,
[00:00:53] Kiran: point
[00:00:54] Kiran: Awesome. And so with, that introduction to this brand-new show, I think what you have planned for us is a sort of chronological travel through time, right? We're gonna start from the early civilizations and then go through the history of India over the next few episodes, right?
[00:01:15] Vijay: That's exactly correct. So I figured for our first few episodes go through the history of India and the Indian subcontinent, if you will and try and tell a little bit of the story of the people who lived here before us, a little bit about what we know about our own history, and I think that that might be something that listeners of all ages would be interested in.
[00:01:42] Vijay: For today, I thought we should start at the very beginning of Indian history and Indian civilization. So that's the topic that I have picked for today, which is what is popularly known as the Indus Valley Civilization, or also known as the Harappan Civilization.
[00:02:00] Kiran: I think that was, that was actually one of my favorite parts when I was studying history as well, because it's just so ancient, and it's also talking about, the start of everything, right, in this region. And I think we still have a lot to learn about the civilization, and also we have a lot to learn from the civilization as well. So maybe you can launch us into this, Vijay.
[00:02:23] Vijay: So I think that's exactly correct. Now there's a couple of things that we need to start off with.
[00:02:29] Vijay: And we have evidence of human beings living in the Indian subcontinent at least two million years ago. We believe that they came over the mountains over, over land. So they left Africa, went through the Middle East, and then went through what is today Pakistan, then came over the mountains and came into the Indian subcontinent.
[00:02:52] Vijay: But there are also some people who believe that they could potentially have come directly across the ocean from Africa ... Again, a lot of today's episode is going to be me telling you, "We don't know for sure, but these are some theories." Because we are now talking about really ancient history. We're talking about history that most of it wasn't written down, and whatever was written down, we don't know how to interpret and read the scripts.
[00:03:22] Vijay: So we don't even know what they're saying.
[00:03:24] Vijay: So
[00:03:24] Vijay: What is the Indus Valley and what is this Indus Valley Civilization? So the Indus Valley, it's technically not a valley, it's actually the plains. It's it's the Indus River that flows from the Himalayas there's a little piece of it that is in Northern India, in the Kashmir region, but for the most part, the river flows through what is today Pakistan,
[00:03:48] Kiran: Okay
[00:03:49] Vijay: it, it flows through that area and goes and empties out into the Indian Ocean. It's one of the largest liv- rivers on the planet, and it is also for Pakistan, it is the lifeline of the Pakistan agricultural economy because without that, there would be no fresh water in that country. And it's-
[00:04:09] Kiran: it originate in Pakistan?
[00:04:11] Vijay: It originates in what is today Tibet in China, and it flows through the mountains into the Indian part of Kashmir, and then flows into Pakistan.
[00:04:22] Vijay: And it-- But at that point in the mountains, it's like a really tiny stream. It's like, maybe a few feet wide. But by the time you get to what is today called Sindh, which is a province in Pakistan. And Sindh is derived from the Sanskrit word for the Indus, Sindhu.
[00:04:42] Vijay: So
[00:04:42] Kiran: Mhm.
[00:04:43] Vijay: Sindh is the province, and essentially it's like kilometers wide by the time it gets to th- it gets closer to the Indian Ocean. So it is a, it becomes a huge river. And of course, one of the things that feeds this river, which is very important, is the s- cyclical monsoons that happen in the Indian subcontinent.
[00:05:05] Kiran: Was the civilization formed in this region because it was-- of the river, because it was so fertile, because it was
[00:05:13] Vijay: Yes. Yes. So the Indus Valley Civilization occurs around the same time that a few other civilizations occur around the world. Now,
[00:05:27] Kiran: OK
[00:05:28] Vijay: first things first, shall we explain what civilization is? A civilization is basically a society that has transitioned away from being nomads and hunters and gatherers towards being settled communities with an agricultural base, and then you move on from there to having,
[00:05:53] Vijay: sort
[00:05:53] Vijay: of
[00:05:54] Kiran: and tools and
[00:05:55] Vijay: yeah, tools, manufacturing, but most importantly settled , it's not a nomad community where you live in tents and then pick up your tent and move. You build a city, you build a house.
[00:06:06] Vijay: a... We know today.
[00:06:08] Vijay: Yeah.
[00:06:09] Kiran: we know, most of us,
[00:06:09] Vijay: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:06:11] Kiran: it wasn't the case.
[00:06:13] Vijay: In the, exactly. Exactly. So the Indus Valley Civilization, it's believed to have started around 3300 BCE, so that means about five and a half thousand years ago, right?
[00:06:31] Vijay: And the evidence suggests that it has some of the oldest settlements in the Indian subcontinent. There are contemporary societies also around that time. We were mentioning rivers, so there's the Egyptian civilization that's based on the River Nile.
[00:06:49] Vijay: There's the Mesopotamian civilization that's based on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which is in what is today modern Iraq. And there's the Chinese civilization, which is around the Yellow and Yangtze River in eastern China. So these are all civilizations that are contemporaneous with each other.
[00:07:11] Vijay: We have
[00:07:12] Kiran: all
[00:07:12] Vijay: evidence
[00:07:13] Kiran: same time, but they
[00:07:14] Vijay: around the same time
[00:07:15] Kiran: yeah, and they all focused on river that they based their lives around
[00:07:19] Vijay: Yes, now let's bring it back to the Indus Valley, right?
[00:07:24] Vijay: it was vast, it was massive, and it, spanned a very large area, which was pretty much the entirety of the Indus and even some of what we today call Punjab.
[00:07:37] Kiran: Parts of Afghanistan full of Pakistan and then all the way east towards Punjab
[00:07:44] Vijay: Yeah. Exactly
[00:07:46] Vijay: But there is a theory that there was another river that also flowed in the same direction as the Indus. So the Indus is one of those rivers that flows from the northeast to the southwest, right?
[00:08:02] Vijay: And there's a theory that there was another river, we call it the Ghaggar or the Hakra River. Some people have sep- speculated that it might be what is in ancient texts called the Saraswati River, which is mostly now a dried up bed that goes through what is today the deserts of Rajasthan.
[00:08:21] Vijay: Now, scientists are looking into this and seeing if that could have been the case or not.
[00:08:26] Kiran: Yeah.
[00:08:26] Vijay: What we
[00:08:27] Kiran: also from the perspective of why was it so important? Why do we consider the Indus Valley Civilization so important that it's in our textbooks that we need to know about it, and how does it kind of contextualize to where we are today?
[00:08:42] Vijay: Because it's the oldest example of agriculture and settlement in the Indian subcontinent. Because it's the oldest, s- becau- and also because of its scale. The size of this civilization is incredible.
[00:08:57] Vijay: And what they achieved in terms of agriculture the domestication of animals, these are settled societies that go back 7,000 years ago.
[00:09:08] Kiran: Yeah
[00:09:09] Vijay: so for example, they had planned cities, so they had streets on grids. They had a uniform system of brick making. So all of the bricks that they made to build their houses or any other buildings in their, like granaries or whatever, they all had the same size, the same dimensions and proportions.
[00:09:33] Vijay: Up and down, again, thousands of miles of, of country, and they had the same system, so they must have had incredible communication. We also-
[00:09:44] Kiran: right? How do you s- how do you-- I mean, in those days there's no phones, there's no internet, there's no Wi-Fi, there's none of that.
[00:09:51] Vijay: None of that
[00:09:52] Kiran: do you send that communication over to thousands and thousands of kilometers?
[00:09:57] Vijay: Hey, Kiran, I gotta be honest with you, we still don't know. There was definitely communication, there was definitely trade among all of these people.
[00:10:04] Vijay: Indus Valley Civilization products have been found in modern-day Iraq, in what is modern-day Egypt. it, it was a massive exporter of cotton, we know that. Cotton was a big crop that they exported,
[00:10:17] Kiran: mhm
[00:10:18] Vijay: especially to places like Egypt. So they were connected to the entire ancient world in a way that you wouldn't realize and understand.
[00:10:29] Kiran: Yeah, yeah
[00:10:30] Vijay: This particular civilization, we know existed from around 3300 BCE to approximately 1300 BCE. So for 2,000 years,
[00:10:42] Kiran: that's
[00:10:42] Vijay: civilization survived. So first of all, we know they had big granaries, so they had systems and processes in place to s- protect food and m- make sure that there were food reserves so that if there was a-
[00:10:57] Kiran: really important point, right? Because as nomads, you're never really storing too much in one place. You're taking only
[00:11:04] Vijay: Right
[00:11:04] Kiran: as you can carry and move from one place to another. So if this is a civilization that they decided, and again, I don't know, I'm not the history expert over here, but just think about it.
[00:11:14] Kiran: Thousands of people have to come in and agree that for the first time they're gonna try and settle in one place. Whether it was hundreds of people, thousands of people, no one knows.
[00:11:24] Vijay: That's right
[00:11:25] Kiran: A, they have to decide that they have to settle in one place and stop traveling and going back and forth. They find this beautiful, river and they're like, "Okay, let's set up base over here," which is great. I would love to live on a riverbank as well. And then basically have to now start organizing, and that's where the granary and all of that comes in, right? They say, "Okay, we are not just producing and creating crops which we use immediately, but let's create excess that we can store even for one month later or, a couple
[00:11:56] Vijay: More,
[00:11:56] Vijay: it it's
[00:11:57] Vijay: it's more than that. Not just storing for one or two months. It's because, and nowadays we don't realize this because we've had a lot of technology innovations and a lot of, we've had a what we call the Green Revolution
[00:12:10] Kiran: Yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:12:11] Vijay: So we don't realize it anymore, but the Indian subcontinent has, for thousands of years, had periodically, every four, five, six, seven s- years would have had droughts and famines.
[00:12:25] Vijay: And so storing food and storing grain for lean times was a very important part of maintaining the health of the population. The other thing we know was that they built in their cities, they built large, for lack of a better word, we call them baths, but they're basically big, big public swimming pools with fresh water that came from the Indus.
[00:12:50] Vijay: If you go to a temple or a mosque anywhere else in India today, you will notice in a lot of them especially in rural areas, you will notice that outside of that temple or mosque, there is a big water tank or a, a, or a small manmade lake.
[00:13:07] Vijay: In India, the monsoons fail every few years. Famine and drought was not a, a rare thing. So preserving water, preserving grain, preserving food, these were all things that people had to do in order to make sure that they were going to have sufficient stores for the lean times.
[00:13:33] Vijay: Okay. One other thing we know about this civilization, which is why we call it a Bronze Age civilization, is that they knew how to work bronze as a metal. So we've,
[00:13:46] Vijay: we
[00:13:46] Vijay: have, we have, the example of what is famously known as the dancing girl which is a little bronze figurine, et cetera. And bronze was a massive technological shift from what was before and, and just the idea that they could smelt metals and all of that.
[00:14:04] Vijay: So that's something that's interesting to know.
[00:14:06] Kiran: But was,
[00:14:07] Vijay: I-
[00:14:07] Kiran: this region known to be a good source of raw material for that particular process?
[00:14:14] Vijay: wasn't, it wasn't. So they had to import it from somewhere else,
[00:14:18] Vijay: most
[00:14:19] Vijay: likely from, most likely from what is today called the Middle East. So there you go. Yeah, so they had a vast trade network across the Indian Ocean to what is today called Arabia and what is today called North Africa and even into the Mediterranean. So there's a-- that is something that we have to remember. They were not an isolated, insulated s- society. They were in very much in communication with other people in other places.
[00:14:51] Kiran: Excellent
[00:14:52] Vijay: I'd like to end with two other points.
[00:14:55] Kiran: Mhm
[00:14:56] Vijay: The first is that it basically disappeared.
[00:15:00] Vijay: Around 1300 BCE is what we think, is the civilization declined, the entire area got depopulated, and the cities and settlements that they had basically got silted over.
[00:15:15] Kiran: Oh wow, okay
[00:15:17] Vijay: and it was forgotten by everybody, until it was found again in the 1800s.
[00:15:25] Vijay: In the 1800s, during the British rule, they were building railways in that area, and in order to stabilize the railway tracks, you need to put down some kind of brick or something or the other. And what the locals were doing was providing these bricks and putting them underneath the tracks.
[00:15:47] Vijay: And the British engineers who were building the railways asked, "Where are you guys getting these bricks from?" And so the locals would say, "No, there are these mounds over there, and if you see these mounds, there are bricks inside it." And so that's when - archeologists came to these places and started,
[00:16:08] Kiran: way
[00:16:09] Vijay: Investigating what the issue was.
[00:16:11] Vijay: Now, yeah.
[00:16:13] Kiran: I did
[00:16:14] Vijay: that. That's pretty cool
[00:16:15] Vijay: In the 1860s, a very big development happened. The British government in India created an organization that exists to this day called the Archeological Survey of India.
[00:16:29] Vijay: And this was created in the 1860s, and they started doing serious scientifically based excavation work on these sites and started looking up and going through what these sites are. And the two major sites that they found was a site called Harappa, which is why sometimes the Indus Valley Civilization is also called the Harappan Civilization.
[00:16:55] Vijay: This is closer to what is today Punjab. And second was a place called Mohenjo-daro, which is closer to what is today Sindh. And these two were massive cities that would have been home to thousands and thousands of people, and they were, they were very, very prominent places.
[00:17:14] Kiran: So they were like the Mumbai and the Delhi of today
[00:17:17] Vijay: That's exactly right. And the distance between the two of them was also similar.
[00:17:23] Kiran: Yeah.
[00:17:24] Vijay: And yet the style of architecture was very similar as well. So that's something that is, is quite remarkable, especially for this time period. I just wanna end with mentioning two people because these people are very important for us understanding how we came to learn about this civilization.
[00:17:49] Vijay: The first is a British archeologist by the name of Mortimer Wheeler. He was the head of the archeological survey, and he was one of the people who recognized that there's something here in these mounds and this discovery, pushes back Indian history to 1500 BCE, so that's something that we didn't know, nobody knew about.
[00:18:15] Vijay: And the second thing that he did, which was probably the greatest thing that he did, was he had an associate who worked with him in the archeological survey, a gentleman by the name of R. D. Banerjee. R. D. Banerjee was from Bengal, and he was instrumental in... the 1920s in doing the archeological work and the serious discovery and scientific work to show that these were significant sites that deserved global attention.
[00:18:50] Kiran: So, so hold on. As we, as we come to the end of this, I think I just want one thing clear, is that you're saying about 100 years ago, because 1920s is about 100 years ago,
[00:18:59] Kiran: That's when we actually started understanding about this civilization which existed thousands of years ago?
[00:19:06] Vijay: That's absolutely correct. And that's because the British were building a railway, so the railway was a new technology, and
[00:19:14] Vijay: that's
[00:19:14] Vijay: what that's what led to this entire discussion.
[00:19:17] Kiran: The beauty about history, right? Is that you never know when you're gonna discover more about your past, and
[00:19:24] Vijay: right. That's right.
[00:19:25] Kiran: up. Yeah
[00:19:26] Vijay: That's right.
[00:19:27] Vijay: There's one last thing I want to say, Kiran, before we go, because I think this is important for today's generation as well. How did this civilization come to an end and get completely forgotten?
[00:19:40] Kiran: Mhm
[00:19:40] Vijay: What we believe happened is climate change.
[00:19:45] Kiran: Oh
[00:19:45] Vijay: We don't know for sure, but one of the
[00:19:47] Kiran: sure
[00:19:47] Vijay: theories out there is that changes in the conditions in the Himalayas basically changed the trajectory of what we call today the Ghaggar and Hakra River. And as a result of that, half of the water that this civilization was getting disappeared.
[00:20:06] Vijay: And so therefore, this civilization basically came to an end. So climate change isn't a new thing. Climate change goes back even to 4,000 years.
[00:20:18] Kiran: It is a good point. is a good
[00:20:20] Vijay: So
[00:20:21] Kiran: we keep saying history teaches us a lot, and
[00:20:24] Vijay: Exactly
[00:20:25] Kiran: it is something that we can also kind of imbibe because most of the listeners of this podcast are gonna be the ones who are gonna shape the future. And
[00:20:33] Vijay: Exactly
[00:20:34] Kiran: it is very important to kind of consider that and, and learn from
[00:20:38] Vijay: Shape the fu- shape the future and also learn more about the past
[00:20:43] Kiran: On that note, we will see you on the next episode. Thanks, Vijay. See you soon
[00:20:49] Vijay: Thank you very much